Today I had an online chat with a friend about the subject of legalism vs. licentiousness especially as regards to our evangelism style.
It was centred around the statement in the Epistle of Jude, "Faith without works is dead". I make it my aim that my view on "legalism vs grace" always comes across as "pure, peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy" (James 3:17). James talks about the importance of expressing our knowledge and wisdom with "meekness" of wisdom (verse 13) rather than with "strife" (verse 16).
Our chat went something like this - and, leave a comment if you sense anything lacking in my appreciation of God's heart:
John
Hi
been preaching lately?
Friend
not for a few weeks been very busy wid uni
what about you?
John
Yes
Friend
thats great were do you preach?
John
One-on-one
Friend
hows that going?
yeah I prob will have to do one on ones for a while
John
So I guess it's not really called Preaching when it's one-on-one is it
Friend
whats your thought on james concerning works as evidence of salvation?
John
I agree with James
Friend
na not really
yeah it is hard for people to understand we are not pushing a works salvation isnt it?
John
James was talking to people who were adulterers
People can't be continuing in that lifestyle and expect to be saved
Friend
can you show me where it talks about adulteres?
I thought he was talking about abraham and rahab as well
John
4:4
Friend
do you think 4:1-2 can be included in this idea?
John
Yes because the whole letter was written to the same people. James was also addressing people who were cursing others (3:10)
Friend
and I noticed boasting in chapter 3
John
He was addressing people who were saying that it is God Himself who was tempting them to sin, as if that justified sinning (1:13)
He was writing to people who were warring amongst themselves (4:1)
Friend
now looking at it that way it seems it encompasses almost everything, what about the beggining where he adresses the 12 tribes dispersed?
Friend
yeah it is an interesting book, how would you adress someone who said to you "NO you are preaching a works salvation"
John
It was mainly Jewish people whom James was addressing
He called them "sinners"
Friend
yes well they were the first convert
John
Paul never addressed true believers as "sinners" even the Corinthians who had a lot of stuff still to fix up!
But James was addressing "sinners"
He was addressing the types of people who employ destitute people as labourers and then refuse to pay them even when they cry out
Friend
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
if these people were not saved whats the faith trying about?
John
Yes his letter addresses a variety of people at various sections of his Epistle. So when we interpret each section, it helps if we understand exactly who he was addressing in each section, and what those people were up to
John
I think it's highly appropriate to tell an adulterous man who is cursing people and waging war, completely ignoring the poor, and refusing to pay wages, that it's not enough just to say, "I'm a Christian".
Friend
could adultery also include adultery with the world?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
John
I suppose it would depend on how 'adultery with the world' is being expressed in the individual's life. If he's continuing in adultery, cursing, and deliberately ripping disadvantaged people off, then yes, he is committing adultery with the world
It's also important to remember what type of situations Moses was addressing when he gave them the Law.
Moses was addressing a world which was so warped that they needed to be told that it's not a good idea to have sex with animals.
He was addressing a world which needed someone to tell them that it's not a good idea to have sex with your mother
John
He was addressing a world which needed to be told that it isn't right to own a slave against his will for the rest of his life and mistreat him or her
Friend
Do you think that the people of that day did not think it was wrong to murder?
John
I think many of them were so entrenched in these things and their conscience was so dulled and they delighted in one another doing such things. God was sending the Israelites into a land of people who thought it was okay to cause their children to walk through fire in sacrifice to their gods
Friend
Im not sure I agree at this point
Im not sure might take some time to think about it though it is interesting concept the last few paragrapghs
John
Yes so it was this same type of blindness and self-deception that James was probably addressing - Jews who had been scattered amongst the Gentiles and who had picked up their lawless ways of living.
And who adopted a 'belief' in Christ but whose lifestyles hadn't changed one little bit and they thought that was okay!
Friend
I dont know I would have to read the book more indepth with those thoughts in mind
And who adopted a 'belief' in Christ but whose lifestyles hadn't changed one little bit and they thought that was okay!
John
okay
Friend
Isnt this a lot of whats going on now?
John
Yes it sure is
Friend
And who adopted a 'belief' in Christ but whose lifestyles hadn't changed one little bit and they thought that was
Friend
So can we apply those scriptures to people who are acting like that? How would you approach it if they were screaming legalist?
John
I heard the other day about a Pastor who had invited a guest speaker to his church, and the pastor sent two girls to the guest-speaker's hotel room. It's just wrong!
Friend
which church was this in the USA or Australia?
John
USA. And I heard about a Pastor in Pakistan who was lying about his ministry to attract money, and when a fellow-Pakistani exposed him, he had him beaten up. It's just wrong!
Friend
just a passing thought were you named after johnathon edwards?
oh that happens all the time not so much the beating up but the lying about a ministry we had a few come here and they were arrested
John
I don't think any sensible person with a good heart, would argue with us and call us 'legalistic' if we warn someone who thinks it's okay to keep committing adultery, lying, extortion etc.
And you are right - these things are all too common
Friend
haha what type of "christians" have you been exspoused too?
John
I've met Christians who think it's okay to commit fornication
Friend
I meet them all the time in the clubbing district when witnessing, friends from many different churches, the see nothing wrong with it
John
There is a big difference in my opinion between someone who falls into sin and feels really bad about it and confesses it and wishes they won't do it again - and someone who actually teaches that it's not a sin or that it's okay to keep doing it and who doesn't really wish to change or feel bad at all.
Friend
you tell them its wrong to get drunk and sleep around they either mention legalism or christian liberty
i agree with you on the difference I myself have fallen into sin several times
grevious sin
Have felt really convicted about it and had to put it right
John
Yes these people even try to quote the Bible. They are getting close to the type of situation which James was warning about. And that's why Paul said,"Be not deceived, God is not mocked..." We do reap what we sow - eternally. But there is a big difference between someone who sins a hundred times and confesses it with grief everytime, and someone who doesn't feel bad and even thinks God is okay with it. I would approach these two types of people in a similar yet slightly different way.
John
We all have sinned brother. But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to... It's those who don't confess it as sin who are in trouble. And these are the one's James was addressing with statements like "faith without works is dead" and "weep and howl ye sinners"
Friend
yes, so you would agree we are to test oursleves to see if we are truely in the faith?
John
Well, on the one hand, we can be too introspective, we can feel held-back by our sins even though we've confessed them. But on the other hand, if we are utterly disregarding others, and making a lifestyle of it, then yes - we urgently need to examine ourself.
Remember that when Paul wrote to "examine yourselves" he was addressing people who were getting drunk at church and completely despising the poor.
Friend
What do you think caused all this problem concerning people that live in continuous sin with no repentance?
Friend
And call themselves christians?
John
...Paul was not only addressing people who were getting drunk AT CHURCH but who also thought it was okay to have a member who was sleeping with his stepmother, doing things which even the unbelievers wouldn't do!
But if somone feels bad about what they've done, Paul told them how to treat him. He said, "Confirm your love to him, welcome him, lest Satan take advantage of his sorrow"
John
See the difference? If we apply James and Pauls statements to the same type of situations, then we are correctly applying the Word.
But if not, we might not be conveying God's heart exactly
Friend
ummm what about a serial rapist they are often sorry, can a serial rapist be a christian?
John
Not if he teaches that it's okay
Friend
what id he is sorry everytime and knows its wrong?
John
If he can scarcely look up to heaven for shame, and cries out to God and says, "How could I have done that?!!! God, forgive me!" Then he is forgiven, 70X7. But if he comes to church with a brazen attitude and when confronted, says it's okay, then someone needs to tell him that faith without works is dead.
Someone needs to tell him, "Examine yourself, see whether ye be in the faith".
Friend
I not sure I agree, the fact that someone is raping all the time is evidence of being lost and had never been made a new creature
John
Yes I suppose it all depends on whether the person is coming looking for help, or whether they don't feel they need help. James was addressing people who obviously didn't believe they needed help. They even justified themselves.
I would address a person differently if he came admitting his need for help, than I would if it was someone who was actually teaching that fornication is Biblical
Friend
I have to get back to my studies, I am doing a unit that hates God they teach that God is dead in a post christian world so its pretty fullon. Was good talking to you about this you have given me something to think about. keep up the witnessing and pray for us as we will pray for you
John
Thank you. I pray for a soul-winning year for you! You're an inspiration.
I'm inspired by your example and zeal
Friend
Thanks for the encouragement we need it, we just done a video with mormons and are are doing one with 7th day adventists this week, we actually go and talk to them and discuss the scriptures with them
so pray for that
so pray for that
John
Remember, it's not he who just talks to souls, but he that "winneth" souls, that is wise.
Good on you. You are labouring abundantly for the Lord. A good example of hard work.
Love and blessings brother.
Friend
thanks
John
:):)
Friend
cya mate and God bless
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